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- A Season Of The Great Lake - an Interview with Mukoma wa Ngugi
A Season Of The Great Lake - an Interview with Mukoma wa Ngugi
- By Francis Ohanyido
- Published July 2, 2007
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Francis Ohanyido
Francis Okechukwu Ohanyido is a Nigerian poet, oral African Historian, Fine Artist, Philosopher and an advocate of the Neo-African Renaissance (Afrisecal movement). He has won many accolades in both the arts and the sciences. He studied at the University Of Jos, (Bachelor of Medicine/Bachelor of Surgery 1991-2000) and the Imo State University (post-graduate diploma in Hospital and Health services administration with bias for Public Health medicine 2000-2001). He is the foundation President of Nigeria Telemedicine Development Alliance. He is a member of many international humanitarian organisations such as the South African - based Doctors for Life International. He is also an active member of Kaduna Writers League and Association of Nigerian Authors, Kaduna state. Ohanyido is currently working on a novel, The Red Cap.
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An Afriquest Interview series conducted by F.O Ohanyido.
Mukoma, lets start with a small autobiography and your feelings about Kenya :
In a lot of ways, Kenya is my starting point but not necessarily my end point. This is to say that growing up in Kenya has shaped a lot of my political thinking; it has certainly colored the ink in my pen. It is a starting point that allows me to travel and to be shaped by my journeys. In short, it is my home but I am always careful that my home does not become my prison.
I must admit that having read some of your works, I have found it difficult to decide where your soft spot lies. Can you shed more light on your favourite genre, if there is any?
I primarily consider myself a poet which was sort of decided to me. Around 1996 I was invited to read my poetry at a cultural event in Ohio . When I got there I found there was huge poster of the day's events and somewhere in the middle was my name with the description Kenyan Poet and I thought to myself, Hmmh, I can become that. I think I am most fluent with poetry. But I like to try and master other genres believing that some ideas also demand a certain form. There are some ideas in my poetry that would be very difficult to express in essay form. Conversely there are some ideas that lend themselves very well to the political or personal essay. I like to think of being able to use multiple genres as being fluent in many musical instruments. Most musicians play multiple instruments why not the same for writers?
I recollect reading somewhere how Binyavanga Wainaina one of Kenya 's accomplished writers, was really overwhelmed by level of American ignorance about Africa . He had gone on to quote a particular student in his contemporary-African-literature course at Union College who had said, "I'm not exactly sure where Sudan is. Is it near the ocean?"
That appeared to have been particularly painful , since the class had been discussing the novel Season of Migration to the North, by the acclaimed Sudanese writer Tayeb Salih. He had simply told the young woman to look up where Sudan is located on the map. Do you sometimes go through similar vexing episodes in Wisconsin ?
There is a lot of what I would call willful American ignorance. American nationalism cannot exist if at some point the American citizen did not consciously decide not to look at the rest of the world. The belief in being the most civilized, most democratic and consequently most able to civilize the world cannot exist if the American citizen sees the full humanity of the African or Arab for that matter. Therefore this ignorance is part and parcel of American nationalism and this is why for me it is also very dangerous. I fully understand Binyavanga's frustration. Here is a most remarkable book, one that ironically deals with the European's inability to fully see Africa and what colonialism was creating and the consequences for both the African and the European, and the students cannot see it. In fact they do not want see it.
I also quite agree with Binyavanga's response “if you do not know where Sudan is, I am not going to tell you find out where it is for yourself. For how else can real debate begin? I mean, if every discussion has to begin with where a certain country is located, or that Africa has cities, there are airplanes, Africans do live in trees etc, how do we get the real questions of the day that are plaguing humanity? How do we get to the question of lets how America is oiled by Iraqi or Nigerian resources for example?
So I think it is important to understand that these kind of questions, which come across as ignorant or arrogant actually have a function to play in American nationalism putting Africa in its place, blinding the American to US complicity and responsibility while at the same time reassuring the American that the mission to civilize and democratize is needed and noble.
Can you discuss a little about you first book?
The book, Conversing with Africa: Politics of Change was my attempt to try and contextualize contemporary Africa in the tradition of radical politics. The framework I use is Pan-African. In the book I look at the role of the Africanist and African scholar. There is a fascinating discussion that brews under the radar in academia. That is the Africanist scholar (mostly white and American) and the African scholar (African and elite) do not get along because they are in competition of who speaks for Africa . The irony of course is that they both, even as they pretend to speak for the continent long abandoned it. But juxtaposed to these kinds of intellectuals are others who have seen their role in more political terms Fanon for the African intellectual and Basil Davidson for the Africanist.
I also look at the failure of the so called second winds of democracy. Africa's poverty since the 1990's has been worsening. What is happening in the Niger Delta easily serves as a metaphor of what is happening in the rest of the continent. Resources are being plundered; the fledgling democracies lack the imagination or political will to bring relief to their societies, and we see a fattening local elite and corporations without shame. Steve Biko when asked what kind of political and economic arrangement he saw in a future South Africa said it would have to be socialist in nature; it would have to be redistributive. This was a result of the savage inequalities that exist in S. Africa . Well, the same vicious inequalities exist in most of the continent and piling the name democracy without democratic acts will not alleviate them. Elsewhere I have called for Democracies with content of economic, social and political equality. A democracy that does not aspire to such content, that has already accepted inequality as part of humanity will not work.
The overall point of the novel (and after this summary I hope you still find value in getting yourself a copy) is that we have to dream of societies that are just.
Do you share the view that educated Africans are probably more enlightened about the world we live in than Westerners?
Well, hesitant yes and shaky no. Yes, because we have to negotiate multiple worlds most Africans speak several languages. And no, because as Americans like to say the proof is in the pudding. If it were so, Africa would not be in the shape it is in; I mean most of our dictators have been educated. No also because our intellectuals don't always contribute to African causes, and will not be politically active. I suppose the answer would depend on what it means to be enlightened. If it means just knowing perhaps, but if it means also action and results, I would be wary of giving a resounding yes.
I see you as a kindred Afrisecal spirit. When did you discover this element of your writing?
I think to agitate for African causes is to at the same time have deep faith in African people. I do not think I can be a poet who sings (and singing contains wailing) for Africa without having faith that Africa can one day do right by its citizens. By the same token I cannot be politically engaged with the continent without faith, a faith that is logical but at times unjustifiable, that at times wavers but always present in Africa's capacity for regeneration and renewal. In this sense I cannot but be a kindred Afrisecal spirit.
How do you situate the alterity of East and West African writings in the social, political, and aesthetic realms? Where do you think they intersect?
African writers have been, I think the single most important, facilitators of Pan-Africanism. People like Dubois and Nkrumah might have provided the theory, but it is the writers that humanize Africans to each other. We see each other through their works. Achebe's Things Fall Apart and Soyinka's Kongi's Harvest were staples when I was growing up. When I meet a West African, the first thing more often than not he or she will say they have read Ngugi's River Between or A Grain of Wheat. When Ngugi was detained, writers like Soyinka agitated on his behalf. Whether as a result of a common tapestry woven by colonialism, our dictators or that thing we call African solidarity, the intersections have always been there and they have been quite strong.
Are there any West African writers you consider to have had great influence on your writing?
In terms of setting a standard, I immediately think of Ben Okri. The Famished Road for me remains, one of the best novels I have read. I use standard here to mean writing something that is uniquely yours. Certainly the style of magical realism/surrealism has been used before by writers like Gabriel Garcia Marquez. But only Ben Okri could have written The Famished Road, nothing like it existed before. Its his contribution. This is an odd claim to make so think of Soyinka's The Interpreters. The Interpreters is a fine book, a novel I am in envy of, yet my feeling is that it is not uniquely Soyinka's. It could have been written by someone else. That it could have just as easily been written by someone else doesn't mean someone else could have, or it would have been easy, but it does not set a standard of ambition to me as a writer.
Ben Okri's Dangerous Love, is also a fine a novel as they come. The title is unfortunate; I think that in part has to do with why it receives so little attention, but it remains one of my favorite books where else can you find lovers taking serious romantic walks along the polluted highways of Lagos?
Mukoma, lets start with a small autobiography and your feelings about Kenya :
In a lot of ways, Kenya is my starting point but not necessarily my end point. This is to say that growing up in Kenya has shaped a lot of my political thinking; it has certainly colored the ink in my pen. It is a starting point that allows me to travel and to be shaped by my journeys. In short, it is my home but I am always careful that my home does not become my prison.
I must admit that having read some of your works, I have found it difficult to decide where your soft spot lies. Can you shed more light on your favourite genre, if there is any?
I primarily consider myself a poet which was sort of decided to me. Around 1996 I was invited to read my poetry at a cultural event in Ohio . When I got there I found there was huge poster of the day's events and somewhere in the middle was my name with the description Kenyan Poet and I thought to myself, Hmmh, I can become that. I think I am most fluent with poetry. But I like to try and master other genres believing that some ideas also demand a certain form. There are some ideas in my poetry that would be very difficult to express in essay form. Conversely there are some ideas that lend themselves very well to the political or personal essay. I like to think of being able to use multiple genres as being fluent in many musical instruments. Most musicians play multiple instruments why not the same for writers?
I recollect reading somewhere how Binyavanga Wainaina one of Kenya 's accomplished writers, was really overwhelmed by level of American ignorance about Africa . He had gone on to quote a particular student in his contemporary-African-literature course at Union College who had said, "I'm not exactly sure where Sudan is. Is it near the ocean?"
That appeared to have been particularly painful , since the class had been discussing the novel Season of Migration to the North, by the acclaimed Sudanese writer Tayeb Salih. He had simply told the young woman to look up where Sudan is located on the map. Do you sometimes go through similar vexing episodes in Wisconsin ?
There is a lot of what I would call willful American ignorance. American nationalism cannot exist if at some point the American citizen did not consciously decide not to look at the rest of the world. The belief in being the most civilized, most democratic and consequently most able to civilize the world cannot exist if the American citizen sees the full humanity of the African or Arab for that matter. Therefore this ignorance is part and parcel of American nationalism and this is why for me it is also very dangerous. I fully understand Binyavanga's frustration. Here is a most remarkable book, one that ironically deals with the European's inability to fully see Africa and what colonialism was creating and the consequences for both the African and the European, and the students cannot see it. In fact they do not want see it. I also quite agree with Binyavanga's response “if you do not know where Sudan is, I am not going to tell you find out where it is for yourself. For how else can real debate begin? I mean, if every discussion has to begin with where a certain country is located, or that Africa has cities, there are airplanes, Africans do live in trees etc, how do we get the real questions of the day that are plaguing humanity? How do we get to the question of lets how America is oiled by Iraqi or Nigerian resources for example?
So I think it is important to understand that these kind of questions, which come across as ignorant or arrogant actually have a function to play in American nationalism putting Africa in its place, blinding the American to US complicity and responsibility while at the same time reassuring the American that the mission to civilize and democratize is needed and noble.
Can you discuss a little about you first book?
The book, Conversing with Africa: Politics of Change was my attempt to try and contextualize contemporary Africa in the tradition of radical politics. The framework I use is Pan-African. In the book I look at the role of the Africanist and African scholar. There is a fascinating discussion that brews under the radar in academia. That is the Africanist scholar (mostly white and American) and the African scholar (African and elite) do not get along because they are in competition of who speaks for Africa . The irony of course is that they both, even as they pretend to speak for the continent long abandoned it. But juxtaposed to these kinds of intellectuals are others who have seen their role in more political terms Fanon for the African intellectual and Basil Davidson for the Africanist.
I also look at the failure of the so called second winds of democracy. Africa's poverty since the 1990's has been worsening. What is happening in the Niger Delta easily serves as a metaphor of what is happening in the rest of the continent. Resources are being plundered; the fledgling democracies lack the imagination or political will to bring relief to their societies, and we see a fattening local elite and corporations without shame. Steve Biko when asked what kind of political and economic arrangement he saw in a future South Africa said it would have to be socialist in nature; it would have to be redistributive. This was a result of the savage inequalities that exist in S. Africa . Well, the same vicious inequalities exist in most of the continent and piling the name democracy without democratic acts will not alleviate them. Elsewhere I have called for Democracies with content of economic, social and political equality. A democracy that does not aspire to such content, that has already accepted inequality as part of humanity will not work.
The overall point of the novel (and after this summary I hope you still find value in getting yourself a copy) is that we have to dream of societies that are just.
Do you share the view that educated Africans are probably more enlightened about the world we live in than Westerners?
Well, hesitant yes and shaky no. Yes, because we have to negotiate multiple worlds most Africans speak several languages. And no, because as Americans like to say the proof is in the pudding. If it were so, Africa would not be in the shape it is in; I mean most of our dictators have been educated. No also because our intellectuals don't always contribute to African causes, and will not be politically active. I suppose the answer would depend on what it means to be enlightened. If it means just knowing perhaps, but if it means also action and results, I would be wary of giving a resounding yes.
I see you as a kindred Afrisecal spirit. When did you discover this element of your writing?
I think to agitate for African causes is to at the same time have deep faith in African people. I do not think I can be a poet who sings (and singing contains wailing) for Africa without having faith that Africa can one day do right by its citizens. By the same token I cannot be politically engaged with the continent without faith, a faith that is logical but at times unjustifiable, that at times wavers but always present in Africa's capacity for regeneration and renewal. In this sense I cannot but be a kindred Afrisecal spirit.
How do you situate the alterity of East and West African writings in the social, political, and aesthetic realms? Where do you think they intersect?
African writers have been, I think the single most important, facilitators of Pan-Africanism. People like Dubois and Nkrumah might have provided the theory, but it is the writers that humanize Africans to each other. We see each other through their works. Achebe's Things Fall Apart and Soyinka's Kongi's Harvest were staples when I was growing up. When I meet a West African, the first thing more often than not he or she will say they have read Ngugi's River Between or A Grain of Wheat. When Ngugi was detained, writers like Soyinka agitated on his behalf. Whether as a result of a common tapestry woven by colonialism, our dictators or that thing we call African solidarity, the intersections have always been there and they have been quite strong.
Are there any West African writers you consider to have had great influence on your writing?
In terms of setting a standard, I immediately think of Ben Okri. The Famished Road for me remains, one of the best novels I have read. I use standard here to mean writing something that is uniquely yours. Certainly the style of magical realism/surrealism has been used before by writers like Gabriel Garcia Marquez. But only Ben Okri could have written The Famished Road, nothing like it existed before. Its his contribution. This is an odd claim to make so think of Soyinka's The Interpreters. The Interpreters is a fine book, a novel I am in envy of, yet my feeling is that it is not uniquely Soyinka's. It could have been written by someone else. That it could have just as easily been written by someone else doesn't mean someone else could have, or it would have been easy, but it does not set a standard of ambition to me as a writer.
Ben Okri's Dangerous Love, is also a fine a novel as they come. The title is unfortunate; I think that in part has to do with why it receives so little attention, but it remains one of my favorite books where else can you find lovers taking serious romantic walks along the polluted highways of Lagos?